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Announcer 0:01
You’re listening to biz ninja entrepreneur radio. This show was created for entrepreneurs, business owners, marketers and dreamers who want to learn from the experts of today and drastically shortcut their own success to build a business that supports their dream lifestyle. Since 2011, Tyler Jorgensen has been interviewing business thought leaders from around the world, a serial entrepreneur himself. Tyler also shares his personal insights into what’s working in business today. Welcome to biz ninja, entrepreneur radio.
Tyler Jorgenson 0:38
Welcome out to biz ninja entrepreneur Radio. I’m your host, Tyler Jorgensen. And today, I have something really special because there is not a lot of people that are repeat guests on this show. So over a decade of doing this show, only a handful of people have made it out twice. And that’s because Jeff Rosenbloom has written a another amazing book, this one called exponential. If you haven’t watched his episode from 2017, where he talks about his book friction, still one of my favorite books, probably the coolest marketing coffee table book I’ve ever had. But we’re excited to talk about exponential and transforming your brand by empowering instead of interrupting Welcome back to the show. Jeff. Tyler, thanks for having me. Man. I I like to get the trifecta on your show. I’m not writing any more books, man is keep saying I’m done. I’m done with it. But hopefully we can find the excuse gave me on for a third time. I appreciate it. And I love your show. I love talking to people who implement and execute as well as Yeah, because you you’re a founding partner of an amazing agency called cuentas. You’ve written a couple of books, this book is really special, because you’re donating all the profits to charity. What made you decide to do that?
Jeff Rosenblum 1:44
I think it’s really two reasons, which is one, we do believe in the power of businesses to make the world a better place. We started out with our first documentary all about the future of advertising called the naked brand. And we just want to practice what we preach is, is the first reason the second reason honestly, there’s so much shameless self promotion that goes on with the book, and it just feels disgusting. So it feels better when I’m donating money to charity.
Tyler Jorgenson 2:07
I love that it’s it just keeps you in an ethical place of peace, which is good. You know, you’re promoting for someone greater than yourself, which is so cool. So I’m transforming your band by empowering instead of interrupting who was this book written for?
Jeff Rosenblum 2:22
Great question. I think it’s for anybody who works in advertising is the low hanging fruit, or anyone who works in anything related to marketing and sales. But the way we see it is advertising is going through a complete and total revolution, right? You can no longer get by with obfuscation, you can no longer get by duplicity, you can no longer get by with like a clever 30-second spot people can see right through companies, they know what’s real, they know what’s fake. So it can work for anyone who works in Leadership, Culture management, it works for CEOs, CFOs business owners, people on Wall Street people on Main Street, because the point of the matter is everything is being changed right now everything about business is different. If we think we can build brands, the old way, with superficial messages and interruptions, we’re going to go out of business quickly
Tyler Jorgenson 3:09
seems to be a repeating theme right now on the show over the last over this last year, the transparency that’s happening in business because the average consumer is so much more aware of how marketing works, even if they can’t put it into words. They know it now intuitively. Right? And so they’re aware of hooks and clickbait and these things that they used to get tricked by, right. And so things are changing. And so you’re talking a lot about about shifting. I love there’s a bullet point here produced exponential growth by shifting from interruptions to empowerment, what does that mean in shifting from interruptions to empowerment?
Jeff Rosenblum 3:44
Yeah, so I’ve always been obsessed with brands that dominate the competition, brands that grow exponentially. If you look at the stock price of some of them, you can see it right, Apple, Amazon, Google, it’s not about technology, what these companies are doing, and you see it in lots of categories doesn’t need to be technology. What they’re doing is they’re improving people’s lives, one small step at a time. And they’re using all of that data and all that creativity in content and storytelling to bring that to life. The old way is I’m just going to interrupt you I’m gonna buy a bunch of TV ads, or now digital came along so sort of TV ads turned into pre rolls and print ads, and banner ads, junk mail turn to spam, social media came along. It’s like cat memes and ice bucket challenges. Know the fundamentals of business have changed. And if you improve people’s lives, you will grow exponentially.
Tyler Jorgenson 4:37
So there’s an old saying that comes up on this show every once a while but if you build a better mousetrap, the whole world would be down there. There, you know, a path to your door. I’ve never agreed with it, because people have to know about the mousetrap first, right? So but what you’re saying is that if you can create improvement and actually a higher quality of life, and then let people know about that right then then they’re going to build and that’s where you can start to build like brand new evangelist, talk to us a little bit about that, like, what’s the difference between the type of content that used to happen and the type of content that needs to be created going forward? Yeah, man, you
Jeff Rosenblum 5:08
just got to the heart of the matter. Let me get to the exciting part. And then we’ll get back to traditional advertising. Okay, the exciting part is exactly that. Build brand evangelists, right. These are the people that are at their restaurant, the bar that around the campfire yet on social media, they’re on Amazon, those recommendations are up to 12 times as trusted as your typical paid ads 12 times. So the number one rule of advertising and it’s really ironic is, the more evangelist you have, the fewer ads you need to buy. So we should wake up in the morning thinking less about how do we find our target audience? How do we interrupt people at the lowest cost? How do we have the most clever ad out there and figure out how do we bring meaning and value in create those conversations and create those evangelists. But your other point about the mousetrap? This is not to say that advertising is dead. That false eulogy has been written before, advertising can still do incredible things, TV, print, radio, podcast, digital, you name it, it does rural class stuff, we’re just asking it to do too much, you still need to do it like another way of looking instead of the mousetrap, a record a candy store in the desert, right? You can’t build the candy store if nobody’s aware. So you still need advertising. You just don’t have to tell the whole story crammed into 30-second spot with a jingle, you need to drive them through an immersive experience.
Tyler Jorgenson 6:32
Yeah, and I know we’re going to talk a lot about the purchase journey. But you have a stat and I know it’s just one small part of your book. But you talked about how it was Super Bowl ads that 80% of advertisers end up saying that it didn’t hit their metrics and or they’re like, wasn’t a positive experience. But yet people still line up to shovel tons of cash. They’re right. Why do you think that it’s both ineffective overall, yet still such a big part of our culture?
Jeff Rosenblum 6:58
Oh, man, another another one great questions, you’re getting ready at the heart of the matter. And how bananas this whole thing is. So looking at age magazine, look at Adweek magazine. And even if you’re not in advertising, you’re just in business, it’s important to recognize what goes on when the Super Bowl comes around the entire industry. That’s all we focused in on is Super Bowl advertising at age gives itself up to all these folks in in some ways, yet, it actually is pretty crazy. Because there’s an advertising orgy going on. This never happens anywhere else, right, the game comes on, everybody grabs their best friends and family members cold beer or soda, and you watch the ads. That doesn’t happen anywhere. We run away from ADS except for there. But then the next set of ads comes around and we kind of watch. And then the third comes around like I’m watching the football game. I’m eating chicken wings and having a good time and my friends barely paying attention. So adage ran that article, all caps 80% of Super Bowl advertising doesn’t work. Meanwhile, they turn themselves over to advertising on the Super Bowl every single year. It’s crazy, in my point is like, let’s get out of the echo chamber and stop focusing in on trying to be disruptive and trying to be clever and trying to have cool jingles and try and have the best Superbowl ad because it works for Coke, Pepsi, Budweiser and a couple other brands. But everyone else you’ve got more to say then you can fill in to what 30 seconds Superbowl spot.
Tyler Jorgenson 8:21
So it’s a hard spot to try to introduce a new brand and any level of meaningful, right storytelling, right? Because you just can’t fit much in there. And the the likelihood that someone’s able to watch that one, that one video and then take meaningful action along that purchase journey is love. Right? So what should small to medium brands do instead, their
Jeff Rosenblum 8:43
small to medium brands have a distinct advantage, I think because they’re not married to the old way of doing things. They’re much more nimble than the small businesses. Here’s one of the research findings that we came across were like your head explodes when you see it because finally someone you’ve got numbers to it. The average car buying journey is 13 hours long, you decide you want to buy a car, that’s when the timer starts. And it’s 13 hours, typically over months and months and months before you complete the purchase. So let’s say you do have a great 30-second ad that’s on the Super Bowl. And let’s say you’ve got a bunch of other ads and you run it like 10 times over well, there’s still something like 12 hours and 56 minutes left in the journey. And there’s all different things that you can do look at how Tesla’s stock is growing. I hate to say it exponentially and they’re not running those silly interruptive TV ads, right? How do we find what that entire journey looks like? How do we create meaningful content that really answers people’s questions that they have all along the journey? So to answer your question, if you’re a small or medium business, that’s a huge opportunity because so many big businesses are like, how do we make this great Superbowl ad and dumping 510 $15 million into it? They’re all in what let those guys go with the sucker clay and you can focus in on something that’s more meaningful.
Yeah, it’s almost literally the 8020 rule, right? Like 80% of those things aren’t working yet people are still chasing it, where you can go the other direction, make more meaningful interactions and get greater results. You say that brands start naked in front of their customers now, but they’re now defined by their behavior, not their messaging, how are brands communicating behavior, effectively to their consumer base? Yeah, another cool finding we we came across is, there’s over 500,000 brands on the planet right now. Write that book summarized it perfectly, the world is flat, if you’ve got a good idea, you can find a programming team in Israel, you can find a logo developer in Brazil, and you can build a brand overnight, I think when COVID hit, there was something like 10,000 brands alone, I’m like GrubHub type services. So in advertising, we will talk about differentiation. And I think differentiation is now being replaced by execution. Sure, you still want to try to be different. But can you really find that empty space? When there’s 500,000? Brands? Really, it’s about executing? So there’s obviously this big trend, Simon Sinek brought it around, like start with why what’s your brand purpose? But the real issue right now is, what are you doing about it? If you believe in culture, if you believe in environment, if you believe in customer service, if you believe in value, how are you bringing that to life? So differentiation is being replaced with execution? Meaning how are you executing upon that platform, how you bring depth and meaning to that purpose?
Tyler Jorgenson 11:36
It’s really fascinating. Just seeing as things evolve, right, and seeing you work with some really big brands, like quest is is does not work with small startups with small funding. Right? So how are these big companies making adjustments? Or are they making adjustments to adapt to the modern, like, impact the modern way they need to market?
Jeff Rosenblum 11:55
You know, I think the companies that focus in on culture are pivoting very effectively, obviously, giant public corporations that are hard to turn, and a lot of our clients are actually startups and medium sized businesses. But yeah, they tend to be well funded. But first, what you need to do is focus in on culture, because if you don’t get your culture, right, you’re not going to be able to turn that ship at all. And, you know, this isn’t because I’m a genius. It’s because Dude, I got gray hair, I’ve been doing this for 30 years, within four or five minutes of walking into a major company. And I feel like I’ve walked into almost all of them, I can tell you, if a company is going to succeed, I wish I was wise enough to follow this and buy stocks in these companies back in the day. Because what you can sense is, is the culture, right? Like, are they treating each other effectively? Are they listening? Well write in those are the companies that understand the world is changing, we need to break our addiction to interruptions, we can’t rely exclusively on creative storytelling and 30-second spots. So if you get your culture, right, you realize it’s gonna require data analytics, technology, creativity, content, storytelling, customer service, finance, project management, the list goes on and on. How do you break down those silos in service of your customer and making sure you’re providing unparalleled value.
Tyler Jorgenson 13:15
So there’s the old adage of getting the right people on the bus, and then you could take the bus, right anywhere, and it sounds a lot like what you’re saying is making sure that that bus with that team, that company has strong the right culture, the right energy to solve problems to pivot to be able to make adjustments as as the market comes at them. Because, you know, we can all start with one idea of what the market wants. But then when that data and that analytics, when those come back, if we can’t make the adjustments, the company is dead, right? It’s not going to the trajectory is beginning to change at that point. Um, and I’ve long been a believer, I always joke about pink ocean strategy, right? Because Blue Ocean Strategy is really expensive. And red ocean strategies too competitive. But if you can find like, well, there’s a little bit of blood in the water, and you can just be the better executer. I love that idea of what you said, like, you just have to have a great, you have to have a good idea. They exist all over. But you’ve actually got to do it. And you’ve got to bring it to the market. Right. And so what are some examples of companies either that you’ve worked with or that you’re aware of that you feel are doing this really well?
Jeff Rosenblum 14:13
Yeah, rather than shameless self promotion. Let me let me point out one that we didn’t work on that I think is good is the poster child right now. It’s the one that mind blowing to me. So I’ll give you this strategic setup Fender Guitars is under intense pressure. Because playing the guitar is a lot harder than it looks in kids today, can write incredible music without instruments, they can literally do it all through their computer. So fender, recognizing this as a point of friction, decided to do something about it. They decided to help people learn how to play guitar, and they created a platform called fender play. And yes, you can get lessons on YouTube, but they’re able to take all those Affer mentioned skill sets and build something bigger and better than you can find anywhere else. If you’re a beginner, intermediate and expert If you love blues, rock, country jazz, it will give you lessons on a one to one basis, really high quality lessons, PDF content support, as you go through it, it tracks your progress it recommends it grows with you on this one to one basis. What’s interesting about it is you don’t need to have a Fender guitar, they don’t care. You can have a Gibson guitar, it doesn’t make a difference. And at no point are they like, this is brought to you by Fender and you’re going to play better on a fender and you need a Fender that would suck that would just run the whole thing, because it would be inauthentic. But now what they’ve got is a place where you see the amps see two guitars, see the logo, you share your data, data is not bad data is awesome when used correctly. So now fender knows what kind of guitar player you like what your tastes are. So it actually feeds into the ecosystem mix traditional advertising, more effective walls surrounding you with that brand. And go one step further. What’s crazy about it is you can get some of this content for free, which works really well. But now this marketing vehicle for them is also a revenue generating tool, because people subscribe and they do it happily. It’s the most amazing example I wish I was part of it had nothing to do with it. But I am a subscriber.
Tyler Jorgenson 16:13
Oh, that’s cool. How’s your how’s your? How are your skills developing? I’m incredible after using fender play, that’s actually to be honest, yeah, I’m gonna have to send this clip to their marketing team. That was awesome. But I love all of those things, right? Lead with value. Like make sure there’s some value that’s, that’s consumable, even before the first transaction, which I’m a big believer in. And then yeah, give them an opportunity like that freemium model can be really poorly executed. But from what I understand if it’s fender fender play, they’ve done a really good job. I’ve used it for even just like they’re tuning, you know, tuning guitars and stuff, they have some great free free tools for that. Yeah, it’s, and I think what you’re talking about is that purchase journey, feeling like there’s some integrity to it. And you’re not feeling tricked along the way. Because I think brands used to do that and get away with it. And I don’t think they’re getting away with it anymore. Because, you know, every Karen on the keyboard, if they feel like they got tricked, the brand’s gonna get, you know, highlighted and blown up. And so, um, there’s a lot more integrity, I think in the in the future of marketing and advertising, and how the sales process fits in. Would you agree with that?
Jeff Rosenblum 17:22
I think it’s just 100% I think there’s a lot more integrity, because the alternatives just don’t work anymore. But I think there’s also something even more profound, which is what we call the value exchange. Right? consumers understand they’re giving you their most important asset, not just money, their time, their attention, their loyalty, their recommendations. So what do they want in return, they’re looking for value. And if you can provide more value than they’re putting into it, there’s a psychological principle called homeostasis. We like balance in this world. So if we give X dollars in value, nobody’s thinking this way. It’s subconscious. But you’re getting more than x in return. Homeostasis says, I need to balance this out. So what do we do, we tell our friends, we go up on social media, we live up, we leave a positive review, we find that balance, and that’s the big thing is go back to what we’re talking about with a 13 hour journey, map that journey, understand each step and find where you can put more value to your customers than they’re putting into each step.
Tyler Jorgenson 18:31
I think that’s amazing. And if you the goal is to keep that scale consistently tipped right consistently, where you’re over delivering on the value. And because then it not just like, Okay, we’re gonna lead with a bunch of value, and then we’re just gonna extract from that point on, right? It’s, it’s just how do you keep the value exchange leaning towards the, towards the customer? I
Jeff Rosenblum 18:50
think that’s just fascinating. And it’s always changing. Think about remember when Apple was a while ago now, I mean, 1015 years. And also it was like, Oh, my God, this packaging is incredible. Right now, everybody’s got great packaging. But when that packaging, and then there was unpacking videos like this became a great differentiator, it seems superficial, but it’s not it tipped the value exchange, like I bought a computer when it came to some political packaging, and it was an experience for all of us. Now everybody’s doing that, or they should be because otherwise you’ve got a missed opportunity. And it’s kind of table stakes. But what’s the next level? One of the things I’m fascinated about? If I were to start my career over, I would think about helping companies figure out customer service. I think customer service is the new advertising, because people understand on a subconscious level, whether it’s traditional advertising, TV print, whether it’s never next generation stuff, Google Facebook, Instagram, I think people understand. Anybody can do that. Right? Anybody can run an ad on Instagram. But what about answering the phone when it rings? What about looking you in the eye when you walk into a store? What about shaking your hand? What about understanding you on a one to one level whether you’re a small business are using data on a big business, right? How do we understand customers? Because at the end of the day, advertising is table stakes. It’s what I do. I’m not just I’m not saying you can’t differentiate and have great advertising, but unmet need lives in customer service. How do we lean into that a little bit more.
Tyler Jorgenson 20:18
And I think that’s what you need. When you talk about the purchase journey, even though that the purchase journey for the course is 13 hours, it doesn’t stop there, right. So what happens after that is what happens when the person brings it in for the first service? What’s their experience with the first time that something doesn’t go perfectly in that car, because those are the things that they may have had a great experience. But now if they feel trapped in something they don’t love for five years, because the post purchase experience is poor, like that advertising won’t work. Right, those referrals all stop, those reviews all fall apart. And so I think what you’re I mean, if that sounds like what you’re talking about, is that that customer service after the fact, it has to be on par or better, it has to continue to improve, right, the value, that value differential has to continue to be leaning towards the customer. I just think I absolutely think that’s the future of business. Is that the customer? It’s not that the customer is always right. But is that the customer is always valued? Right? The customer’s always important.
Jeff Rosenblum 21:14
Yeah, I mean, that’s the problem with advertising. Now it comes full circle to the beginning of our conversation is advertising is traditionally focused in on how do I acquire customers? Right? And it’s usually focused in on how do I use some interruptions? What I think is we just need to broaden our lens a little bit, you can still be about that. But let’s look at the entire life cycle that you have with that customer in focus or primary metric on how do we create evangelists, in through any tool required, right? Whether it’s an interruption and a great 30-second? Video, fine, if that works fine. Or maybe some customer service? Or maybe it’s an immersive platform like fender, but stop focusing only on customer acquisition and look at the entire journey.
Tyler Jorgenson 21:56
Yeah, I fully agree. I think just being customer centric, and really focusing on the customer, what they need is going to is what has to happen, right? Gone are the times where you can manipulate the customer into pursuing or consuming the way you wanted them to do it. They want to choose their own adventure. Jeff, as you look back over your career, you say you got a few gray hairs. I see it as wisdom. What are some of the the like, challenges that you faced in your agency and in your growth? And that you and how did you overcome? Like, what was the biggest obstacle you faced? Oh, man, myself.
Jeff Rosenblum 22:31
There’s a short answer. I think the longer answer is, you know, we ran ourselves into some trouble. And I’ll, I’ll tell the whole story, which is, yeah, please. The first piece of content before we wrote the two books was a documentary called The Naked brand. And I told the world of advertising, like everything you’re doing is about to be completely disrupted. I don’t care if you went to Procter and Gamble or Harvard, everything you’re doing is bad to get disrupted, you’re screwed. And I went to the first conference, and I thought everyone was gonna boo me off the stage. Everyone at the end, after we showed it stood up gave me a standing ovation, because so many people get this, and they’re dying for someone to say, let’s stop being superficial. Let’s stop obfuscating. Let’s do something with meaning. So they were stoked. So we entered a contest for agency the year we’re a small agency, we’re independent, I didn’t even fill out the paperwork correctly, we went up against these giant public companies, like 1000s of employees we want. Next year, we’re like, well, let’s fill out the form correctly. We want again, so now we’ve got the documentary, we’re agents to the year twice, we’re on fire, and we started to grow exponentially. And you can see where the story’s going right? Fast forward six months later, I am covered in blood. It’s not in tears, because we ran thing into a brick wall, because we lost our focus on a culture, which is often misconstrued, right? It’s not like we lost focus and on the importance of culture, in working hard to make everybody happy. What we didn’t realize is that great culture is about putting people in position to do their best work. It’s not about Foosball in ping pong, in beers on Thursday, all that stuff is great. But that’s the window dressing the foundation is how do you put people in position to do your best work. And that means hiring not just a players, but a player’s for your organization, in making sure that you’re focused in on projects that are perfect for your organization. So all of that started slipping for us. We lost the quality of our work, we lost the quality of our relationships, our culture, we quickly thought we pivoted, we wiped off the snot and the blood and the tears. And we really focused in on a mission statement, which was how do we build a place where positive, creative people can do their best work? And what that means from an action item standpoint is a dedication to recruiting extraordinarily positive and creative people. If you’re not positive, naturally. I can’t offset whatever your mom and dad did wrong growing up, but I don’t want you in the house. Sorry. And I need you to be creative. I need you to look at even mundane challenges and come up with a career Have solution and then put you in position to do your best work. That’s what our leadership team has to do every day making sure people have the right tools in the right opportunities.
Tyler Jorgenson 25:08
It has been probably one of the biggest things I focused on after this past year is how do we lean into strengths instead of just trying to fix weaknesses, right, like making sure people are in a position where they can build momentum fast, as opposed to just constantly be facing challenges, right? Like, it’s great to overcome a challenge. But if every day starts as a challenge, it’s really hard to be in enjoyment and right and build positive culture.
Jeff Rosenblum 25:32
So this is how we did it. Let me expand, you know, through the snot and the tears, my business partner and I looked at each other, and we’re like, well, this doesn’t feel good. What do we want to do? And what we realized is the strength of our agency, what made us happy, we literally just about being around positive and creative people doing their best work. So instead of having a mission statement, like we’re gonna save the world, we’re going to save the environment, we’re going to save the world of advertising. That’s a byproduct, we really just lean into the strength of what we do is the people. And we’ve said how can we quickly become the LVP is the least valuable players at the agency. And that’s a nice little catchphrase. But I’m telling you, as a business owner, and the people that I speak to, that’s hard, it doesn’t feel great to be the dumbest person at the shop it but we’ve worked hard at it. And when you’re there, it’s incredibly powerful to know that you’re surrounded by people that are a lot better than you on your best day.
Tyler Jorgenson 26:29
You said at the beginning, when I asked that question, that you were your biggest challenge. And I think sometimes we jokingly say that, but I think it’s absolutely true. Like our own ego can stop us from our own opportunity and our own growth. And like being able to bury the ego and say, I need to I need not be the best person in the room. I need to be wrong more often. Right? Like, it’s such an important part of accepting growth, right? And, and yet, somehow, we tend to hold ourselves back from it. Once. As we get here to the end. I always I believe that, that business and all these things that we achieve are nothing if it doesn’t help us build the life we want. What is one item on your personal bucket list you’re gonna accomplish in the next 12 months?
Jeff Rosenblum 26:29
Let’s double back on that guitar thing. I’m gonna learn how to not suck at guitar. Alright, what’s our metric? What is there a song you want to be able to jam on is like is like you want to be able to play at someone’s birthday party?
Tyler Jorgenson 26:29
How do you know that you stop sucking?
Jeff Rosenblum 27:23
You know that? That? I love that question because there should be a goal. I think it’s going to be more about a process than the results and maybe there’s a tangible takeaway for your business listeners. It’s practice 30 minutes minimum, every day. If you can grind out that process, whether you’re focused on culture or guitar, you grind out that process every day. I haven’t read the book, but I’m pretty sure this is what atomic habits is about. It’s on my bookshelf, but grind out that process and I will look back in a year and I’ll I should be a halfway decent guitar player.
Tyler Jorgenson 27:55
Yeah, if you focus on consistent input, the output will come right. So I love it. I think that’s exciting. I’m gonna check in with you in a year and see I have to have you play a song for me but I’m so great visiting with you again, I love the things that you shared I fully agree with you on the future of advertising and marketing and highly highly encouraged people to go check out Jeff’s new book exponential you can check it out at exponential by Jeff rosenbloom.com You can find it on Amazon and all the fancy places books are sold. Jeff where’s the best places place for people to just learn more about you?
Jeff Rosenblum 28:31
You know the quickest and easiest is go to quest this.com QUST us.com Awesome and
Tyler Jorgenson 28:38
Jeff it’s always a pleasure to get to know you a little bit more and talk more my biz ninjas wherever you are listening, watching streaming, it’s your turn to go out and do something.
Announcer 28:49
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