The Transcript Is AutoGenerated And May Contain Grammar and Spelling Errors
Tyler Jorgenson 0:01
You’re listening to biz ninja entrepreneur radio. This show was created for entrepreneurs, business owners, marketers and dreamers who want to learn from the experts of today and drastically shortcut their own success to build a business that supports their dream lifestyle. Since 2011, Tyler Jorgensen has been interviewing business thought leaders from around the world, a serial entrepreneur himself, Tyler also shares his personal insights into what’s working in business today. Welcome to biz Ninja, entrepreneur radio. Welcome out to biz ninja entrepreneur radio, I am your host, Tyler Jorgensen. And today we have the pleasure of talking with Mike McDermott, who is the founder of freshbooks. A company you’ve probably heard of, and possibly even gotten an invoice from the funny thing that I enjoy whenever somebody comes on the show is just seeing how their business has impacted my life. And so I was going through my, my emails, Mike and seeing how many people in my world have used your company to ask me for money, and it was a pretty good numbers. That’s actually pretty cool. But welcome out to the show. Thanks for having me. So I’m excited to go through your journey, because it’s a pretty good one. And it’s always fun when the company is something that is, you know, in the entrepreneurial space, meaning a lot of entrepreneurs use your company to help improve their business. When was the moment Mike that you first realized you were an entrepreneur?
Mike McDermott 1:30
Well, I think it’s the question when I realized that when my mum realized and those, those are different answers. So she punchline is she was quicker to it than me. So when did I first realize, you know, it’s probably I think I kind of got the bug or I realized it started, like doing things, you know, where I was sort of creating and driving things along, and actually building something. So the first one, so I knew some of the things I like, like in high school, I used to organize these, like trips for my friend with like buses and whatever. And I would take that on it who does that, but I loved it. But I didn’t know that was kind of the start of something. Right? And then, you know, undergrad, I actually left the business school program and finished with like a BA in English in fourth year. And but I started two businesses that year. And, you know, I think that’s when it started to become real. I don’t know that I’d even figured out at that point. That that that was, that was like a thing I could do for the rest of my
Tyler Jorgenson 2:26
life. But I think that’s probably the closest. So I think like a lot of entrepreneurs, unless you were introduced to entrepreneurship as a valid career path, you just start realizing that you’re not fitting into the normal mold. Because you’re enjoying solving problems differently than perhaps like your peers. And it sounds like that was similar to your journey. Like I I’m gonna go a different contrarian path. But that’s just because you’re gonna follow your passion or follow your ideas. That’s right.
Mike McDermott 2:51
I have a neighbor, she’s almost 100. And she talks about Mike knew all the things you didn’t want to do. I was like, No, no, no, no, no. But I didn’t know what a yes look like. And anyways, that
Tyler Jorgenson 3:02
this this is it. Well, that’s cool. And so you You did a lot of businesses, you said like in college, right? What were some of the first things that you did in the entrepreneurial space? And what were the early lessons that you learned? So it’s a good question. So
Mike McDermott 3:15
here’s an early lesson, like one of the things I did was I ran basically a sporting event where like, 600, people would come from all over North America, and I was responsible for feeding them and housing them doing all this stuff, I think I learned a couple things with the first year I lost my shirt, it was, you know, really unprofitable, I ended up you know, doing all this work, and you know, going into debt to do it. But but I think I, you know, I learned you know what a quality product is worth something. And I felt really good about that. And I was in the hole like four grand, which is the student is, you know, after all that work, you know, it’s not the end of the world to get a long life ahead of you to figure it out. And I had to take a loan and pay that back and everything like this. But But I think, you know, putting that quality product on as a long term thing, and then sort of sticking with it. So I continue to run that event for over seven years. And I didn’t lose money any other year. And I think that is something that has stuck with me throughout.
Tyler Jorgenson 4:09
It’s interesting when we look back, because now $4,000 probably doesn’t seem like a lot in that process. But at the moment as a student like that’s the amount of debt or of a failure that can completely derail somebody and push them into a different path. And so I think it shows your tenacity and your resilience that for you. You just pushed through that you’ve done some really fascinating things with fresh books. Now, it wasn’t always fresh books. And when you guys decided to rebrand you had a very interesting strategy. You talk a little bit about one the importance of branding and how you guys went about that. Lots of stories
Mike McDermott 4:43
baked into that. But the punchline is we started there with a terrible company name and we were basically for all intents and purposes, building a consumer brand and so you don’t want to have your company name working against you. And so we had to go on a journey like we basically were very passionate about I’d like basically saved over a piece of I saved over an invoice. decided there had to be a better way to do it built a piece of software. And in the process of building the company in the software, like we spent about 30 seconds on what we should call it. And that’s how we wound up with a bad name. And then fast forward two years, and it’s, it’s, you know, it’s, it needs to change. And so that took us on a journey of like, hey, what makes a good name? How do you go ahead and do that, and we spent a, you know, a number of hours, literally like combing through crossword puzzle books and trying to find, you know, creative ways to capture what we did. And the punchline is there’s there’s two ways you can go about it once like an empty vessel, you take a word that means nothing, you build meaning into it, we went down to like, combine a couple of words path. I like it, because I think a good name, you know, tells people what category you’re in, probably expresses your difference is easy to remember is easy to spell. Maybe it’s even fun to say. And so, you know, with fresh books, it’s, you know, a fresh take on this kind of troublesome Monday in accounting thing and books is, you know, it’s a nice constant crunchy word easy to remember easy to spell, like the combination worked well together. So that was a bit of our journey, and it served us really well. And people have been drawn to us, you know, because then the name kicked off a whole opportunity to go and oh, maybe we think about in the colors, and how do we make this a friendly and inviting small business accounting software, versus the alternatives? And it’s helped us get to number two in America, which is probably why you’re getting so many invoices from our customers.
Tyler Jorgenson 6:23
Yeah, and I don’t complain about it. Like they’re, they’re invoicing for good things, and it isn’t easy to use system. So you guys, one, I think there’s a lesson to be learned that you didn’t spend too much time on the name. At the beginning, I’ve seen entrepreneurs get completely stuck in launching something because of the name. Do you think that the way that you did it? Is it smart? Where you just focus on the product first, and then you can you can it’s okay to come back and kind of rebrand later.
Mike McDermott 6:47
I think the big lesson when I was trying to remind myself is like, Look, you know, I like to like live the failure, and then the survive on the other side. And like changing your name is something you can you can do. Right. So yeah, if it had held us up in a major way. Yeah. So you have trade offs all the time, limited time limited focus, I would have rather not had to rename but but I think we did it in a far more deliberative manner after the fact and, and knew more about building a business by then and what we were going to be like, sometimes with a startup, like you don’t know where it’s going, like, what is it going to be at scale? I didn’t know necessarily what the right name would be, if you think about it that way. And in fact, the name we came up with is derived from a very wrongheaded interpretation of where we would ultimately go. So yeah, I can see it both ways. But I think anything that’s really stopping you from progressing early stage in a maze, like you’re just creating friction for yourself, and what you need is escape velocity. So I would just move on to the next slide. Yeah,
Tyler Jorgenson 7:42
I think, you know, momentum is so valuable in an early brand. And in an early idea that anything that can kill momentum, like, you’ve got to just be able to say this may be 80%. Or it may be passable for the next year. But if it keeps us moving, that that there’s a lot of value in that momentum.
Mike McDermott 7:58
Yeah, and the thing I always just do is marry that thought with Is it okay for now. And then by the way, like, put a moratorium on thinking about it, because there’s certain things where it’s like, you won’t let go of it. And like, you make that decision that next week, you’re like, oh, but the name like, you got to say, for example, like, we’re not going to discuss this again, for a year, at which time we can come back and change it, but don’t like you got to put it to bed for a while, or you’ll you’ll never, it’ll keep holding you back.
Tyler Jorgenson 8:23
I like that I’ve never heard that term of putting a moratorium on it, or putting brackets or time restraints on certain decisions. So those things don’t occupy more time than they deserve? How important is culture to fresh books and into new businesses?
Mike McDermott 8:36
Well, I think just in business, you can have two companies in the same category, you know, one persists for a long time, you know, continues to be a leader reinvest new things, another one kind of gets started and sort of dies before you know, anyone ever heard about it? You know, the difference, and in many cases is not capital. It’s not this the it’s culture, right? It’s the invisible thing. And, you know, I sort of my definition of culture is, it’s what happens when nobody’s looking. So do you work in a place where somebody walks by a piece of garbage in the hallway, they pick it up? Or do you live in a place where they walk by, you know, like, that’s the difference is culture. And so culture is a huge thing. And at fresh books, I caught the flame on this in a big way, early days, and we really spent a lot of time being very deliberate around, you know, how do we cultivate the culture we want, like, first of all, had to go with like, what is culture I’ve never worked anywhere before. And it’s a really squishy thing. And then how do you manage and perpetuated and, you know, we’ve grown so much, and we’re still growing so rapidly that people are always afraid, oh, we’re gonna lose it and all this stuff. And so it’s something that needs to be tended to it is this thing, it’s still the number one reason why people choose to work at our company. And we’re a top 10 place to work like we compete against, like the Googles and Amazons, and places to work stuff. And we’ve been a top 10 company for almost a decade now. Almost 10 years in a row. We’ve been doing it for eight and that would be the kind of a bit one year we went to 11. But anyway, so that was, you know, a black mark or a black mark, but, you know, a blemish on the record. Yeah. It just is. So valuable, right? stuff just happens if you get the culture right for free. There’s things you don’t need to do and train. And so it’s just if you can get it going, and it’s not easy, and then keep it going, which is even harder. It is. Yeah,
Tyler Jorgenson 10:12
it’s the X Factor. You use such an amazing example that I’m trying not to take personally, of like, when you you know, do you work in a place where people step over the trash or pick it up? Because to me, that kind of stuff is so important, right? Like the person who is willing to even if it’s not their job, right, handle something, pick something up? I feel like that the trash example, like spills into everything else in a business, right? Like, are they willing to pick something up? or help someone or do something, even if it’s not in their job title, right? So really, really powerful. Any tips for cultivating that side of things? Like what do you guys do to actively cultivate culture?
Mike McDermott 10:48
So I think that really concise and hopefully not too high level answer is, you know, I think you need to spend some time doesn’t happen to half day one. But as you get going, and you have a little water under your keel is you know, figure out what your values are. And I would say when I say figured out I mean, you know, don’t write them down and hope that’s what they are, like, look inside yourself, ask the team, ask your clients as the people outside the business, like how would you describe us and find those behaviors that they referenced that are like, Oh, this is how you folks behave, and write those down and be like, Okay, this is this is our behavior, this is our little cocktail. And we’ll write some values up around those, and then use those to guide behaviors. This is a reference point, this is what we expect. And you want to double down and shine a light on people when they behave in that way. And you want to pull somebody aside behind the scenes one on one very quickly and have a, you know, very swift conversation, if it’s counter to, and maybe if it doesn’t work out, help that person leave quickly. That’s kind of the Coles notes.
Tyler Jorgenson 11:48
I think that’s good. And I love the Coles notes for my Canadian friends and Cliff Notes for we’ve got a few Canadian team members on our team. So I know what that is. That is just a fascinating thing. So one of the things that I think is fascinating you weren’t you were an agency owner, yet a small team, you started building fresh books, because if you identified a problem as an agency owner, all of a sudden, you’re running this company that you just, you know, I mean, you guys are one of the top 10 places to work, you’re growing, you’re huge. Number two in your space in the US, that’s a big difference from a four person agency, right? So as a leader, how did you face and handle imposter syndrome and growth as you had to evolve?
Mike McDermott 12:28
You know, I’ve often thought like our growth was kind of governed, and probably not in a good way, or maybe at times in a good way, but by my own growth and development. So I’d never worked anywhere else like questions like, you know, what is the CEO took me like years to figure out, because I’d never seen one before. And like, what his vision like, I don’t know, let me go and try and like so it took a long, long time to figure that stuff out. And that’s okay. But then I got a pretty deep understanding of each of these things, because I kind of had to know. So I think the point is there, hey, you have to work on yourself. And you can imagine, like, you know, people are like, well, what’s the vision for the company, I’m like, I don’t understand what vision is like, you know, behind the scenes, I’m furiously trying to figure out what that is, maybe we have like 15 people or 20 people or whatever, and you’re trying to find some way to articulate it to inspire people to get them to buy in. The first job is to go through all that you really have to be working on yourself all the time. And then when you’re doing that, it’s you know, you’d be inhuman if you weren’t doubting yourself along the way, or wondering why or why you but you know, I think anyone who’s leading so long as it’s not old hat for them, and they’re still pushing themselves and challenging themselves continues to experience imposter syndrome. It’s like, Hey, you know, Why me? Why should people follow me on this? I sort of haven’t done this before. And I think I actually think a good way to reframe that is that’s a really healthy thing. It means you’re growing, you know, that’s what everyone you look up to thinking all the time anyways, probably. They don’t have the answers they don’t know. And, and just to get comfortable with it, accept it. It’s part of growth, it’s part of bleeding. It’s part of living a life that’s fulfilling. And you know, if that’s the cost, then embrace it.
Tyler Jorgenson 14:03
It’s the weirdest thing growth in general, right? Because we recognize we want to become something that we’re not currently, but we’re not willing, or we have resistance to leaving what we are now. Right? So it’s this weird paradox of like, if I want to be something I’m not that means I have to abandon something I am. But there’s pain and that disconnect, right? And so that that moment of like, Am I going to be enough? When I leave my comfort zone and go to this other place is terrifying.
Mike McDermott 14:26
I also think it’s the uncertainty. And certainly when you’re leading, it’s like, I want to go to that place. But I don’t know how and for a lot of founders, like there’s no role model, right? There’s nobody is nobody you can look to and be like, I know how they did it or what they look like, like, certainly, for me, having never worked anywhere. It was, you know, all first principles all the time and right, you know, that that’s not easy, right? And so I think, you know, founders have, you know, there’s a range of perspectives on them and the behaviors and some of the stuff sometimes, but, you know, I’ll go ahead and say, Hey, I think it’s there’s a lot of privilege in being a founder. And there’s a lot of challenge, right? Because especially If you’re like doing it for the first time, never seen it before, like, that’s when wish that on an enemy in a lot of cases, right? It’s just not
Tyler Jorgenson 15:06
easy to do. It’s true that there’s a paradox of challenge and privilege, right? I think that’s true. And whatever path we choose, right, that you’re gonna take the good with the bad. And it’s about embracing the good and minimizing the bad as much as possible. When you’re in a founder role, especially in tech, the common, even though there’s no role models, there’s kind of a common formula right now. And it’s, and one of the biggest things that a lot of tech businesses will do is go seek out venture capital or seek out cash, how did you choose to grow and handle the capital needs of growing a tech company,
Mike McDermott 15:37
this is one of those things that I think has changed quite a bit. So you know, we’ve almost been at it almost two decades, but not quite. And so when I started out, the whole venture industry was a very different thing than it is today. And especially, you know, we were founded in Toronto, Canada, and the Coles notes, not the cliff notes, right. And the venture community, they’re, you know, at a certain culture of, you know, feeling like big fish in small ponds, and a lot of the information you need to be an informed, you know, founder or CEO, and a venture backed company, was not evenly distributed. So the VCs would do this stuff all day, and the entrepreneurs would be, you know, just hoping not to get, you know, sort of in too much trouble, which is not a good negotiation approach. And even finding lawyers who, you know, finding them who knew how to deal with this stuff was hard. And so we started out from a point of view of like, hey, I want to continue to focus on service and not just become about the dollars and cents. We want to focus on culture and not just become about dollars and cents, because, you know, pretty soon you can get that like, dangerously close to activist investor, the answer is, yes, this number. And that was always my fear, I’ll go ahead and say, I think there’s a lot of highly evolved financial investors out there, and I’ve had the good fortune to work with them, or a handful of them. But it’s been a very good experience. But I was I came from a place of being, you know, sort of afraid and uncertain, and not knowing. So we started out with just raising money from friends and family. And you know, over a decade before we brought on institutional capital, we’ve raised over $100 million. Since then, it took me a while to like, understand, I think you have to understand your partner’s on the other side of a venture capital transaction, like what makes you tick, like, how are you incented. And so I spent a lot of time taking calls, because we had a lot of inbound interest in the company, and trying to, like, you know, understand, who do I like, and how do those people behave, and basically just went to school as a student of venture capital. Until such time, as you know, I had de risked the product and the market and the team and there’s really nothing left but to get get more capital to go ahead and, and scale the business. So for you, a lot of it came down to just timing, not taking it on too early. So
Tyler Jorgenson 17:37
that, like you said, de risked and planned and had learned what vision is, so then you’re not beholden to the answers coming from the wrong person, you get a maintain being kind of in the lead of it,
Mike McDermott 17:48
I think that is a part of it. And so yeah, we could have maybe raised capital sooner or something like that. And so wanted to make sure, I think it’s a little like Warren Buffett said, which is like, I don’t buy things I don’t understand. And so I think I knew I didn’t know, and I had to get to a place where I knew enough, I still was like, way behind and it was still, you know, a big gross step and like fearful like, Okay, here we go. But at the same time, I had a foundation to build on. And it wasn’t just a completely Mysterious, mysterious thing. By the way, since then, all kinds of information on the internet, like as an entrepreneur, you can go and read everything from how to negotiate a term sheet, the vital are standard terms now like this. It’s just so different. And so I think you have to probably invest less time and psychological cycles on that stuff. And maybe somebody back in the day did,
Tyler Jorgenson 18:35
yeah, and I’m just such a huge believer of learning from other people’s paths and journeys. That’s it. That’s why this show started a decade ago was honestly just out of my curiosity of learning from other entrepreneurs. And since then, we’ve interviewed hundreds of entrepreneurs through their journeys and their cycles. A lot of the common themes are exactly what you just said, like, okay, I I made the best decisions that I could have the information I had at the time, but now people have more information than I have right on that subject. And there’s other subjects that are now completely unknown, and we’re trying to figure out, but if it’s things that people have figured out before us, like success leaves clues, right? And failures, leave clues to fresh books is not small, right? over 24 million users? How do you maintain vision and ambition and all of these things, even though you’ve reached levels of success that very few companies will ever reach?
Mike McDermott 19:24
Well, I think part of its culture, right, we have, for example, one value we call stretch, which is basically around continuous improvement and not settling. So we’re leaders and we don’t settle, you’re constantly finding ways creative solutions to go further. So I think it’s kind of baked in on the one hand, and then, you know, a couple of thoughts. One is there’s always people who love to do the things you hate, which is like so you surround yourself with people. And then there’s always people who are almost like more, and now we’re at a place where adding big company people is helpful. And we’re a tiny company to work at for a lot of these people who join us and so they’re like, Oh, this is exciting. You know, like you’re not 1000 people. Yeah, okay, I’m gonna come in. And that’s, you know, that’s great. And that’s kind of fascinating to me, because they’re coming from a 40 or 80,000 person company in some cases. You know, in other cases, we still want to hire people from smaller companies, too. So it’s not not just about that, but, but I think those, those are often the people that help you. Okay, I know the rigor, I know how this works at scale. And so those aren’t the things they’re thinking about. And they can focus on other stuff and helping other people operate, you know, a greater and greater scale all the time. So maybe a long winded way saying every problems that people problem, every solutions that people solution, and, and that’s the path,
Tyler Jorgenson 20:34
it’s interesting, I’m really still, like, fascinated by the journey of the fact that you had a four person agency, and now you have a quote unquote, small, almost 1000 person company, right, like and how other to some people, it’s small. And this this balance of perspective is so like, remarkable, of where, you know, a four person company can be exhausting to run as a founder, but 1000 person can do and a 40,000. All of them require having good systems and good things in place. What have you learned that what has been something that you have seen consistently, from the point of view, having a small team to a pretty large company at this point, that have helped you as the CEO as the founder to maintain balance?
Mike McDermott 21:16
I think for me that this is going to be simple answer and maybe not specific enough. But it’s really about who you bring in the door, right? The quality and the caliber of the people that you are hiring is really the leading indicator for what’s gonna happen next. And then you’ve got to, you know, conduct, right, which is to lead and help people understand which way to go and why the one thing is bringing the people in and helping them understand the customer. If you can do those two things, almost everything else can take care of itself. You know, it’s
Tyler Jorgenson 21:45
funny, you’ve come back to that quite a few times, right? Like the caliber of people, the culture of people that the qual all those things become such a major thing. What are some mistakes that you’ve made along the way? And and how do you shout out to others to avoid them?
Mike McDermott 22:00
I mean, lots, maybe I’ve made them all. You know, one thing about me is I’m a little bit deliberative in my thinking. And some people kind of see that as slow. I see, my job is to make a handful of decisions in a year, like three or four, instead of I don’t get to them right away. But they’re good decisions. And they’re durable, that I think of that as success. But, you know, some folks might say, hey, go faster on that I have a slightly different orientational, like, push all the other decisions to other people, when you do it. And so that’s, that’s been one of my things. And you can argue that, you know, a failure, but you know, you can also argue, it builds a little more of a collaborative workplace. And it’s just stylistically different. I would help people with that, um, you know, I think I’ve made a lot of over the years, I’ve really had to work on how do I manage people, like you don’t probably didn’t appreciate all the biases that I got sort of ingrained in me from my own family, and then not a lot of positive feedback, and, you know, kind of directive in you know, how to do stuff. And so, you know, I think I made a lot of almost just like people management, directional, you know, mistakes over the years for some pretty hard wired stuff. And I think maybe this comes back to the individual journey, like trying to, like overcome that, and, and, you know, sort of meet people where they are and find the style that’s right for them, I think is that is a big part of the journey. And then the byproduct of that, hopefully being they’re super motivated to do whatever it is that they’re doing. Like, I think that’s, and then they’re, they’re giving you like, 130%. Like, that’s, that’s hard to do. And I certainly have not achieved that 100% of the time, probably even close, maybe a little more in later years. But, you know, it’s that So, so a lot of probably, you know, various mistakes along the way, you know, in that realm,
Tyler Jorgenson 23:37
I think it’s interesting that you bring up like familial bias, and just the fact that we enter into our entrepreneurial journey, carrying baggage and perspectives from the past, right. And so, no matter what our journey was to get to entrepreneurship, we carry that with us and being willing to face it and look at am I are these biases serving me or are hindering me is really, really powerful. And a lot of what you’ve talked about throughout our interview is personal growth. That’s the most strongest recurring theme that you’ve brought up is personal growth. Are you into meditation? Are you into coaches? What are your secrets for personal growth
Mike McDermott 24:13
through all of the above, you know, on again, off again? Yeah, and these days, I’m like, I go for almost an hour walk by myself in the morning. And it’s mostly not to think it’s mostly to not think and get a good baseline of not thinking going for the day, right? And then just trusting, okay, if I’m in the right frame, you know, all the answers come easily and quickly. And the reactions, those hardwired things that, you know, mostly don’t manifest these days, but years ago, like that’s, you know, if you can, if you can spend that time early in the day, you’re less likely to be beholden to those reaction by the bias, you can deal observe that better, that kind of thing. So I am a big fan of that. I also have used coaches. I’ve also, you know, long collected advisors and people who I could reach out to and was not afraid to like I would get I’d find people that I trusted who I know knew something I didn’t know yet and right, you know, would call them up and be like, I don’t know what to do. And it’s, you know, mostly, that that’s a call that people are compelled to lean into. They’re like, somebody’s calling me and they’re telling me they don’t know what to do. How can I help is kind of the natural response. You know, it wasn’t a strategic thing. But it served me well over the years. There’s an old adage that it is it cost nothing to ask advice from a friend, right, like and it’s,
Tyler Jorgenson 25:29
I think it’s from Richest Man in Babylon. And a lot of times, you know, you mentioned that we don’t have there’s not a roadmap or we don’t have an always like clear mentors, but with specific decisions, usually we can find someone maybe not for the whole kit and caboodle. But for parts of it. So Mike, I’m a big believer that all of this hard work, all of this ambition, all of the challenges that we face as entrepreneurs is moot if we’re not building the life that we dream of, what’s one major item on your personal bucket list so you’re gonna accomplish in the next 12 months?
Mike McDermott 25:57
Well, after almost 20 years, I pass the keys to the CEO chair to a gentleman who’s kind of leading us through a global expansion and he’s been with us for a couple years he’s super well suited to the role and I’m proud to partner with them so we run the company together but one of my big things is to like actually try and not work so much. spent a lot more time with my family and trying to start that in July and August two years we take this I don’t know when this will air but kind of summer in North America 2021 coming out of COVID now double Baxter All that good stuff. So yeah, I think I think that will be a good start. And you can kind of measure me against that next three months if I spent a lot of time with my kids and my my my wife and family that’ll be a big win.
Tyler Jorgenson 26:38
Let’s pretend that Canada’s fully open that’s easy to travel you have a dream place you’d love to take the family the kids
Mike McDermott 26:44
want to go to Mexico that’s their dream place but they haven’t been many other places. So that’s that’s a factor I my wife wants to go somewhere we know I want to go somewhere new so I think maybe maybe I try and find a balance that a little travel and things open up some places that are familiar and comfortable and you know I look forward to going somewhere that I haven’t been before
Tyler Jorgenson 27:04
I love it. Thank you so much for coming out on the show Mike Hope everyone checks out freshbooks.com if you’re not already using them for your bookkeeping, definitely check out freshbooks.com and Mike really appreciate you coming out and to all my entrepreneurs and businesses wherever you are listening it is your turn to go out and do something. Thank you for tuning in to biz ninja entrepreneur radio. What you didn’t hear was one more very important question that Tyler asks each guest if you want to be a fly on the wall when the real secrets are shared, go to biz ninja.com slash VIP and get your access today. Remember to subscribe so that you don’t miss any future episodes. And our one last favor. If this episode was meaningful to you, please share this podcast with a fellow entrepreneur so they can grow along with us is ninjas. It’s your turn to go out and do something