The Transcript Is Auto Generated And May Contain Spelling And Grammar Errors
Tyler Jorgenson 0:01
You’re listening to biz ninja entrepreneur radio. This show was created for entrepreneurs, business owners, marketers and dreamers who want to learn from the experts of today and drastically shortcut their own success to build a business that supports their dream lifestyle. Since 2011, Tyler Jorgensen has been interviewing business thought leaders from around the world, a serial entrepreneur himself, Tyler also shares his personal insights into what’s working in business today. Welcome to biz Ninja, entrepreneur radio. All right, welcome out to biz ninja entrepreneur radio, I am your host, Tyler Jorgensen. And today, I have a very special guest, somebody that I’ve known for a long time and somehow, some way, we haven’t gotten him onto the show yet, but I’m very excited to have Dave Woodward, the CEO of clickfunnels. Welcome to the show, Dave.
Dave Woodward 1:00
Hey, Tom. So excited to be here. Thanks. I appreciate the invite.
Tyler Jorgenson 1:04
So Dave, I looked through my emails to see when the very first email I ever received from Dave Woodward was, and it was November 6 2009. And it was an email about the 12 month internet millionaire, I’m assuming it was affiliate offer or something that you’re loving. But this show we love to go through really your entrepreneurial journey. When was that moment in your life where you realize I’m an entrepreneur, maybe I don’t see the world just like everyone else.
Dave Woodward 1:34
I probably was in college at the time. I had a whole bunch of things prior to that. But when I finally decided that’s the direction I’m going to go, I was in college.
Tyler Jorgenson 1:42
Okay, and what was the first thing that you did? What was your first entrepreneurial venture?
Dave Woodward 1:46
So at the time, I was accepted medical school week before I supposed to go and chose not to. And I remember talking to the admissions clerk, and she was like, this will be the greatest mistake you ever make, you’re never going to be able to make more money, you’re never going to be able to be successful. You’ll regret this every single time you take kids to the doctor, why in the world are you doing this, and I’m like, I just don’t feel like it’s me. And I remember after that, I went through about a year of just trying to figure things out, got a master’s in exercise physiology with no desire to use it, just try to figure things out. But a buddy of mine, actually his dad owned a bunch of own basically the third of the state of Kentucky physical therapy clinics. And that’s where I started spending time realizing that was the direction I wanted to go, I want to be a business owner, I wanted to figure that part out. So I went to PT school to get a master’s and about a year into that I bailed out and dropped out of that one, because I thought that’s just not for me, either. And I’ve been married for about three months at the time, and my wife is going What in the world. And it was that point that her brother in law’s when it kind of got me out of that frustration educational loop to really starting a business in employee benefits. And so he and I started Employee Benefits firm in Texas. I later took that to California, we sold that company. And that was that was my real entree as my first business owner.
Tyler Jorgenson 3:02
So your first business like that you did you would say it was successful. It was I mean, you you scaled it, you sold it? Yeah, that’s pretty awesome. That’s not normal. Just so you know. Like, that’s not normal. Most people, their first one isn’t a win like that.
Dave Woodward 3:16
But that’s really only let me add a little caveat to that is it got sold, and I got screwed.
Tyler Jorgenson 3:21
That’s what Ah, there’s the life lesson we’re looking
Dave Woodward 3:26
- I was supposed to have made money on the deal and did not.
Tyler Jorgenson 3:30
So you got a little bit you got sucked. You got Zuckerberg, very badly, then, and this was with a family member? It was. So not going into the details of that because, you know, family. But what did you learn from that?
Dave Woodward 3:44
Actually, I learned a ton, I think very first thing I learned was the importance of paper and things of documenting things. And again, I still dear friends to this day. I’ve always separated business and family. And it’s never been an issue for me that way. But I think the main thing was it was just misunderstanding what I thought I had been verbally promised and didn’t have any rights. So I, I realized the importance of getting things in writing was probably the first thing, I think the other thing I really learned from it, which was great. And that was, it takes a lot more than you ever think, to actually get a company off the ground. And it takes again, five times as long do you think it’s going to get to be profitable, we sold it just the point where I was just starting to make a bunch of money in it and had to start all over again. There wasn’t any, you know, opportunity with me in the new thing after we sold it. And so I realized, at that point was really, you’ve got to make sure that you know, know, the people you’re going to business with, and more importantly, that you know where you’re gonna go afterwards. I think a lot of people sell things, and then they’re like, what do I do now? And that was Yeah, I didn’t
Tyler Jorgenson 4:45
know. Yeah, absolutely. I’ve heard once saying that I really like and when it comes to partnerships and business deals, and it’s that the faintest ink is stronger than the best memory. Absolutely. And so, you know, and I’ve looked I’ve been through a lot of partnerships and a lot of things that didn’t always work out. And I’m always like, Look, we write it down, to save the friendship to make sure that we are okay. So that later on when the emotion subsides, we can, we still have that paper to go back to. And I met after going through a pretty rough business partnership that broke down. I had someone that said, you need to approach business partnerships or anything like that, more detailed than you do, like a marriage, like, you’ve got to type out all kinds of hypotheticals of what happens if this person gets divorced, or this person does this, what happens to those shares? And here’s the trick, if that’s not comfortable for the partners to talk about, then you’re not going to have the fortitude to deal with it when it comes up. Like, because that’s at the beginning. That’s when there’s no emotion. So yeah, I think that’s a really good life lesson to have taken from that. And so what did you do next?
Dave Woodward 5:51
I actually, I struggled there for a while I went back into kind of personal production just tried to put food on my table, or I’m just trying to figure things out. And I realized that the part I enjoyed the most about the business side was in was the marketing piece. And at the time, it just kind of come just naturally through things. And I realized I just didn’t know enough. And so I doubled down on education, like crazy started following Dan Kennedy, are doing a ton of research a ton of reading, trying to figure out just more of the marketing side than the sales side. I was, again, just out there, selling insurance and just trying to put food on the table versus trying to grow anything. And once I realized the importance of the biggest investment was going to be in me versus anything I could invest in capitalize. I just doubled down like crazy on education.
Tyler Jorgenson 6:39
That’s awesome. So you mentioned Dan Kennedy, who are some of the other people that you just found momentum through that information that they were putting out.
Dave Woodward 6:48
Jay Abraham was definitely another one. There was a actually bought into a, I can’t remember the guys names. It was a business in a box franchise marketing thing called White to marketing back in the early 2000s. And a lot of their stuff was kind of patterned after Jay Abraham, but it was more of a system. And so that was the very first thing I really kind of bought into. They quickly disappeared and didn’t work type of deal. And but what I realized was the importance of creating systems. And yeah, that was the life lesson I got from that was, no matter what you do in business, you’re going to create some systems that you can follow.
Tyler Jorgenson 7:24
Yeah, that’s huge. And so you and I, again, maybe I’ve been getting your emails since 2009. But the first time I met you was in San Diego at funnel hacking live the second one, I’m still to this day mad at myself for not going to Vegas, because Mark bangerter Mark Baker when and I could have gone with him. And I was like Nah, man, just you bring me the information back. Right. And he did. He came back so pumped up. And it was amazing. But I’ve been listening on the mp3 player, right, I’ve been listening to all of the first one. And I’ve been listening to like, as they’ve been going through tripwires. And I’m like, man, so many people are trying to get to like chapter 30. But they’re not going back and reading chapter one. So how did you get started? Like in your journey, you’re going through all those other things, right? You’re you’re meeting How did you connect with Russell? How did you connect into clickfunnels.
Dave Woodward 8:12
I end up having the marketing, I built a marketing agency at the time I had a bunch of clients in the real estate mortgage investment. It’s kind of where I cut my teeth. And it was that point where it gives us 2007 2008 things are starting to kind of crumble ish. And a lot of them were trying to find out we were doing a ton of direct mail, which is working. And I thought there’s got to be way of going online. And I didn’t know that much about it. And so I found a seminar that Russell will happen to be putting on in Anaheim. And so I went down to the seminar and he and Stu McClaren, were talking about affiliate marketing. And remember, they got up and basically said, Hey, if you’d like to get to know us better, or pick our brains, just go to the back of the room and sign up for lunch or dinner and take us out to dinner and talk and I’m like, learn again, life lesson I would much rather talk to those people are having the success and trying to figure it out myself. So I went back there and signed up for every breakfast, lunch and dinner that Russell had. And we became dear friends. From that we had the option of doing business and a bunch of different things, some work, some didn’t. But when clickfunnels kind of came around, we by that point had had a six, seven year friendship and new kind of my skill set and my success and invited me in to be a partner from very beginning. And that’s where we got going.
Tyler Jorgenson 9:20
That’s really cool. Did you have any hesitation when he approached you to get to be involved in getting tons? Yeah,
Dave Woodward 9:27
my wife probably had more than I did. I’m sure. No, I there was. I had gone through a massive loss financially till 2000 Oh, yeah. 1112 period. And by 2014 I was just barely digging out and was doing it again. At that time. I was flipping a ton of houses. It was making great money was teaching other people how to do it. And we’re literally my wife and I were just finally it’s been a long haul and finally getting out and the opportunity to start over again. And she’s like, Dave, And we’d had some wins and some losses with Russell. As far as some of the deals worked, some didn’t. She’s like, we don’t have, I look at it, we’ve probably breaking even right now on this deal. And I just don’t want to go backwards. And I’m like, sweetheart, I understand that. And this is one of the things I just, this is just a gut feeling sweet. I just feel like this is the right place to go. And I’ve always the one thing I have learned is my wife is the best judge of character, I probably would have saved myself, millions of dollars in losses by just to listen to her. But she basically said, You know what, I feel right about it. Let’s do it. And that’s if she hadn’t given that blessing, I wouldn’t have done it. Man.
Tyler Jorgenson 10:37
What is she okay, with the decision in hindsight,
Unknown Speaker 10:40
in hindsight, she’s actually pretty good with it.
Unknown Speaker 10:42
Unknown Speaker 10:44
She was out.
Dave Woodward 10:46
Yeah, one of the caveats was, I just don’t want to have to move. And I said, Oh, no problem. We’re all remote. So we built clickfunnels for the first two years remote. And then
Tyler Jorgenson 10:57
I said, well, you kept your promise for a little while. Right? You stayed in California here for a bit. And then. But so let’s just real quick since now, we’re on the clickfunnels. subject. Where are we at with clickfunnels? Where are you at in subscriber and you know, and users and revenue? Where’s the company?
Dave Woodward 11:14
About 120,000 customers, you know, called 10 15,000. On our trial, so 105 or so paying customers in that area? Did 130 6 million in annual revenues last year, on target this year to be 150? And looking at growing international next year?
Tyler Jorgenson 11:32
Awesome. Yeah. Really cool stuff from remembering. I wasn’t involved as early as you, obviously. But we were right out of beta. We signed up for this software. And then obviously, Mark Bader works with me at the time. He’s now with you guys crushing it over there and your support team. But it’s been fun. It has been an amazing journey just to beat to witness from the outside. It’s been so cool. I mean, if you my walls now all Click Funnels, right. I’ve got the the world record over here. And I’ve got the two comic clubs. I don’t have my diplomas on the wall. But I’ve got all my Click Funnels, right. And so. But man, it’s the content you guys put out is amazing. And I love the system and the culture that you guys have. There’s a ton of content out there about that. And and you guys are just absolutely amazing education, which is my favorite part of what you guys do really help people understand what they have to do to make the software work. Because it’s not about software. It’s about the frameworks and the systems and the things to build a business. What was you know, you’ve talked about a couple of the big hurdles you had to overcome. What was a big in, you know, in your journey getting to clickfunnels? What was something that you guys had to overcome as a company in those first couple years? And how did you get over it?
Dave Woodward 12:40
Oh, man, gosh, there’s a whole bunch of them.
Unknown Speaker 12:44
Dave Woodward 12:45
I can put the very first one was just trying to get customers. Yeah, that’s a good one. It was, you know, you build this idea, and you think it’s gonna work. And again, it’s the whole idea of the field of dreams don’t build it, they will come. They just don’t. They just don’t. And so we had a couple of false starts, actually, September 23 2014 is really kind of our birthday. We’re coming up on that next week. And in doing that, one of the main things so it’ll be six years. But I think that the big win really came when Russell was presented on Mike feel same stage in October down in San Diego. And I remember, I remember like it was yesterday where we were in this little tiny room and a little hallway lead pages was on one side, we were on the other we have booths basically, we’re making fun of, you know, did your funnel building software, just do landing pages. And, and I remembered it actually, when Russell, it was funny because we were in the room watching Russell speak. And I remember, as soon as he got done like that we finally got it. Like what and the whole reason he said that was because we literally is the first time ever we had this massive stage rush, I mean, just back at the room rush where people were going to sign up. And I think the primary reason was because we were able to treat it. We took it from being a software to an actual, a tool that a business owner could use in their business and show them exactly how and that 190 minutes presentation is really what began the fuel of what became webinars with a bunch of joint venture partners and things, and really is what helped us to take clickfunnels to the next level. I remember actually sat in the back of the room with the mechanics a just sold his company and for undisclosed amount at the time. And I was I said, Oh my gosh, I can’t even imagine how much money that would be. And again, I think it’s probably you know, right around the 10 million mark or whatever it might have been. And thinking cash, what would it take to get to a company like that. And it’s been fun to kind of see and to scale and grow that. Another one was when the we basically the software went down the server, the database it was on just crashed. And you’ve got I mean, we’re the number one user of our own platform, so we felt right Hey, no, Russell literally we just left an event in Colorado smoking Dan Kenny’s event, done super well and he was flying over to London. And Todd basically boxed us and you know what? We’re screwed. We can’t get this thing out. Right. Don’t know how to do this, what’s going to happen. And we literally, fortunately, Todd and Brian Montgomery are CO, they basically rebuilt it on a different database, moved everything over and fortunately did because it never would have taken with taking days and days and days. And we will pull it off within about a 24 hour period of time. And I think that the main lesson learned out of that was important to transparency, that Russell literally landed and apologized. And this is where we’re at things aren’t working, we understand that we know how painful This is. For you, we’re doing the same thing. And so that was some of the the learning experiences there was man. first lesson was you got to get the right message, which we got Mike feel same stage. The next one is the importance of transparency. And both those two things really helped us overcome a lot of the pain and the frustration.
Tyler Jorgenson 15:43
I remember when I don’t remember the the first one because it wasn’t around yet. But I do remember when the software went down, and I was super like, Look, I’ve got hundreds of funnels, and between myself and my clients, we were all over the place. And we got a lot of them that have a lot of ad dollars going into them. It sucks. There’s no way to get around that. But the fact that there was communication and that it was like, okay, they’re working on it this week, they’ll know we’ll know more when they know more gave at least that certainty that there was no nothing being hidden. Right? Nothing. Because that you see that happen, especially right now, when there’s a lot of chaos in the world. And when people are when things are starting to happen, people going quiet like that doesn’t help. No, doesn’t help anybody. It might make it slightly less painful for a moment for you. But you’re just building up a wall of you know, a tidal wave of pain later. Yeah, those are really cool lessons. And what do you think? So you said when the major difference, like when Russell had presented that, you know what he really was able to position things differently, really kind of the beginning of the perfect webinar? What was the difference of how he had been doing it? And like, and what’s the lesson there for everyone else? Right? What should they where’s that thing, the knob they need to dial to make that difference?
Dave Woodward 16:52
I think before a lot of it was the time we had funnel Fridays, and each Friday, Russell get on here to talk about all these cool new features and things that were added. And so it was more of a features type thing. And the software will do this, and I’ll do this, I’ll do this. The webinar was different because it was let me show you how you actually can use this in your business. Right. So we went from a features benefits approach to we know your pain and the problems that you’re trying to deal with. Let me solve the problem for you. And it became much more of a problem solving webinar, or presentation from stage that people could then get their own Aha, I think it was the biggest lesson was the importance of making sure you look at any webinar or sales. The person who’s sitting there has to get their own Aha, they’ve got to see how they can use it going through a list of features and benefits. doesn’t do that until they can actually see it their life.
Tyler Jorgenson 17:36
Yeah. Awesome. Now, when you started five years ago, are coming up on what coming up on six, with Click Funnels, you’ve had to grow as a person to go from who that guy was Dave Woodward 2014. To Dave Ward, we’re 2020 What was the biggest hurdle you personally overcome in your personal development? And like, what are some, you know, call outs? What are some things that have helped you to grow?
Dave Woodward 17:59
Oh, sure. Ah, I think some of the main things, personally was from a management standpoint, I’ve always kind of been the solopreneur, managing of 10 to 20 employees type of deal. You can do that once you start getting 100 plays. It’s a totally different game. And so yeah, I think some of the main things for me was leadership growth, I ended up hiring Jared Robbins, Tony son, and coach with him. I’m a huge believer in coaches, I just believe that there’s so much value you can get from someone else who can see into you and can have those conversations. So that attended to tons of different events became parts of Joe polishes mastermind, Dean grazioso, sees mastermind with Joe polish, attended different amount of basically has his three day MBA program, and went to that really understanding how to actually do things in the real world faster. And so for me, it was a speed of learning talk to a ton of people asked a lot of introspective questions, and asked them to help me, where am I short? Where am I falling short? I’m a huge believer in the you know, what got you to where you’re at will never get you to where you need to go. Right. And so it was how do I get there? And just started funny on?
Tyler Jorgenson 19:10
And that’s hard for a lot of people because oftentimes, I mean, look, you had already ascend it to pretty epic position your company was already doing well, you’re in a place where most people are looking to you for advice, right? So it’s very easy to be like, I’m good, because I’m I can help all these guys. Right? Instead of saying, but I have more. But there’s more. I could be I could be more I could do more. And so that’s really I mean, I love you. The fact that you have a list of things that you did to grow, shows just how growth minded You were right? It wasn’t like, well, one day I woke up and I decided I wanted to be better. Right? It was because that’s what some people will say, Well, I just made the decision to be growth minded. No, like you saw coaches, guides mentorships masterminds, obviously, like Click Funnels has inner circle, but how important are masterminds for entrepreneurs in terms of growth?
Dave Woodward 19:59
I think The most important thing, I can’t think of anything that’s more important, you know, I run across people all the time asking so where should I invest my money and I’m just a hugely reinvest in yourself. First, there’s no, that’s the greatest asset, you’re the one is going to be able to produce more than any other stock real estate no matter what. So I’m just a huge believer in investing in those masterminds. I just, I’ve invested hundreds of thousand dollars in masterminds and I would do it again and again, every
Tyler Jorgenson 20:24
time I was just at a mastermind last week with Justin Williams put on it was kind of an informal last name. But and, and I was watching as like, obviously, Justin’s been to some there was two or three other people in the room that had been to either an inner circle or been another masterminds. But I was watching as these kind of like, entrepreneurs that were new to that space, as they like, lit up as they saw just what was happening as somebody did a presentation and then got immediate feedback. And then the group kind of solve problems together. And Alex frumos, he just did a podcast on how his two biggest days in his business in terms of momentum happened both at masterminds, right one at inner circle one at the Pirates Cove. And it’s amazing how most people still just look at that as, Oh, it’s expensive, or it’s a cost or Oh, it’s this? And you know, look, I mean, there’s times where I wish I could there’s masterminds that I couldn’t afford, yet they were out of my reach. But so let’s go to that. Like, let’s say someone’s not ready to invest 4057, you know, whatever, thousands of dollars, how can they get that same impact? at their current level? That same? You know, you know what I’m saying?
Dave Woodward 21:29
Yeah, no, I, I can tell you, you can create your own mastermind, and I’m a huge believer, I’d literally Gosh, 2000, probably 678 was myself, my brother Woody. And then Travis toolstrip, down at the bayou kitchen in Marietta that we would meet up to week and just talk with each other about our businesses. I think the hardest part about being a business owner of solopreneurs You’re all by yourself, and no one can relate to you, as an entrepreneur, no one can relate. And I remember going out to you know, we go out to dinner with my wife, and we go with other couples, and I just like, Are you serious? I can’t relate to any of these guys. I they just my mind is totally in left field. And so I think that no matter where you’re at, in your business, you can always afford even if it’s literally you get two or three people together, and you come together and you just if nothing else, accountability.
Tyler Jorgenson 22:18
Yeah. I love that. And I think it’s, again, sometimes people think a mastermind is only going to be this, you know, 25 people that paid $25,000 but you’re right, a lot of times it’s just get yourselves around like minded people, connect with them talk openly about what’s going on. There was a dinner that I had with a bunch of clickfunnels guys after fhl Dallas. And it was like Tyler and all the inner circle guys, right? And what a big thing I realized was, everyone there spoke about their pain, like their problems and their mistakes. exactly the way they seem about spoke about their successes. They were just facts of the past. Yeah, that’s it, there was an emotion and so because of like peeling back that like ego, or that persona around it, they were able to just help each other and like, move faster. And I think that’s what a mastermind does. They put you in a safe space of people that are peers, so there’s no fronting. Hopefully, if you want to grow, you got to peel back the front, right? Yeah. Who are some of like, the marketing Legends? The people that you are shocked more people don’t follow or listen to or study?
Dave Woodward 23:22
Again, I Dan Kenny, primarily because that’s where I kind of learned. Yeah, again, I I think right now probably, if you’re not following Russell Brunson. I don’t know why in the world, you wouldn’t? Yeah, dear friend, business partner, aside from all that? I don’t think anyone the part of most impressed with him, he’s always learning. And I think that is you take a look at that kind of stuff. That’s one of the main things I would look at. The other thing I would say is to really look at, I mean, going back to the legends of the past is one things I mean, Gary Halbert, and some of his copywriting things a lot of just kind of depends on what part of it you’re looking at. Going back right now looking at some of Napoleon hills earlier things even though I’ve read Yeah, thing are rich a million times conversation with the devil is what I’m listening to right now. And yeah,
Tyler Jorgenson 24:08
I’m literally like, that’s, I’m on Napoleon Hill kick right now. And when I’m right, yeah, I just finished story brand, which was really good. But yeah, absolutely great names, great people that everyone should be studying. Other than Russell and Dave Woodward, who is the Dan Kennedy of tomorrow, who’s the person that you’re like, this person’s on the rise, and people need to be paying attention.
Dave Woodward 24:28
Honestly, name you’ve already mentioned Alex from Mozi. Yeah, I think Alex is a guy that I would definitely super humble. been through a school of hard knocks ton, wicked smart. His wife is just the same. Laila? I would say both of them together are a couple I would definitely be paying attention to
Tyler Jorgenson 24:46
totally agree. Absolutely. I would agree that’s on that should be on every entrepreneurs list. Originally his podcast, you know, with Jim launch or Jim secrets, right, but the rebranding because really what the lessons he’s sharing are good for any entrepreneur. So awesome. I totally agree with you. Dave, life and business are businesses about creating a life right like about funding that life. What is something on your personal bucket list? Not work related that you’re going to do in the next 12 months?
Dave Woodward 25:13
Well, if they would allow me to travel, travel is the one thing I’m missing more than anything else. Tyler Yeah, I am dying to get to Europe. Again, Italy is on the bucket list. I would love to get over to Italy, I would love to get to Israel. My wife would love to go run the Great Wall of China marathon. So, next 12 months, those be three places I would love to get to.
Tyler Jorgenson 25:36
If I plan a two to three day event in Croatia, Will you come with me? Sure.
Dave Woodward 25:43
Yeah. And yeah, I will get on plane to get out. I would travel anywhere these days. I’m really itching to get on a plane.
Tyler Jorgenson 25:50
So I don’t know if you know I do these little things called the 40 hour power jobs where I’ll just take off I’ll go to I went to Barcelona for the weekend I went to because it’s hard as an entrepreneur, you don’t have time to take seven to 10 days off, but you need travel it’s like fuels the soul like judging location and all that totally. Oh, yeah. I mean, I’ve done Bogota and Iceland and just always so Croatia is unless it’s a little bit longer flight because you’re getting all the way over into Europe, but I think it’s going to need to happen so I will absolutely let you know please tell in the very short list but Dave, super, super appreciate you coming on. I hope everyone like Please listen. Other than Click Funnels comm where can people learn more about you Dave on
Dave Woodward 26:29
Facebook or Instagram I’m on both of those also have clickfunnels Radio Podcast,
Tyler Jorgenson 26:33
which is an amazing podcast that I listened to and you should listen to it’s an interview show just going through clickfunnels users and how they’re using the platform as well as just marketers in general right? And so let’s Click Funnels radio you can find on all those major podcast platforms. Awesome with Dave Thank you so much. All my biz ninjas wherever you’re listening, it’s your turn to go out and do something. Thank you for tuning in to biz ninja entrepreneur radio. What you didn’t hear was one more very important question that Tyler asks each guest if you want to be a fly on the wall when the real secrets are shared, go to biz ninja.com slash VIP and get your access today. Remember to subscribe so that you don’t miss any future episodes. And our one last favor. If this episode was meaningful to you, please share this podcast with a fellow entrepreneur so they can grow along with us is ninjas. It’s your turn to go out and do something