The Transcript Is Auto-Generated and May Contain Spelling And Grammar Errors
Tyler Jorgenson 00:00
to transition from every profession into business ownership is then there’s the things of the business that you were really good at. But no matter what you did before, there are going to be several hats that you have to wear in owning the company. And so there’s always that experience and knowledge gap. And so yeah, Google solves a lot of it. Asking advice from friends solves a lot of it, but nothing solves it more than just getting in there and doing it and starting to figure it out and solve it and answer those questions as they come up. You’re listening to biz ninja entrepreneur radio. This show was created for entrepreneurs, business owners, marketers, and dreamers who want to learn from the experts of today and drastically shortcut their own success to build a business that supports their dream lifestyle. Since 2011, Tyler Jorgenson has been interviewing business thought leaders from around the world, a serial entrepreneur himself, Tyler also shares his personal insights into what’s working in business today. Welcome to biz ninja, entrepreneur, radio. Welcome out to business to entrepreneur radio, I am your host, Tyler Jorgensen. And today, we have an amazing entrepreneur who’s coming to us all the way from across the pond over in the UK, to talk to us about his wine startup. And I really love the concept of what he’s got going on. So welcome, Leslie Owensby of defy dot wine.
Leslie Owensby 01:27
Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. I’m happy to be here.
Tyler Jorgenson 01:30
So let’s see if we’re going to kind of jump back and forth in your journey a little bit. We’re going to go all the way back to the beginning. And then we’re going to talk about what you’re working on now. When was the first moment of your life where you realised you’re an entrepreneur?
Leslie Owensby 01:42
Oh, gosh, nobody’s ever asked me that before? That’s a fantastic question. So I have been involved in I’ve been a consultant for about 20 years now in the product and user research space across a number of industries. And I’ve worked with a lot of startups, I’ve been part of friends startups to help them lending my skills and time to that. But to be honest with you was probably really late. I didn’t realise my my desire and passion for that probably until about five or six years ago. And then it really kind of sunk in my brain. And I was starting to think about it. Yeah, so what
Tyler Jorgenson 02:19
so a few years back, all of a sudden, you started thinking maybe I need to do something on my own. Right? How did you come up with the idea of what you were going to do? I didn’t like what was the first spark?
Leslie Owensby 02:30
It actually was about one like, defies my my first thing. Now I I’ve kind of started a second thing after that, quickly realising that I just can’t do the two at once, really, like I got to pick something, pick a lane, pick a horse and kind of just really go deep on this one thing. But it was something that I started to think about everything I do, everything I had done has been digital. Yeah, you know, it’s been to these been services. It’s been API’s is a little bit of physical stuff. And a little bit of Internet of Things, for some companies for an energy company. But it wasn’t until I stopped to thought about it, I realised I always have this love for packaging, like physical packaging. And there’s something about going into shops, it drives my friends and saying to my wife going in and picking things up and touching them and looking at them how things were presented, the psychology about what it made it desirable to me when made desirable to other people. And it’s this little kind of thing you could take home, and you can have with you in some cases, we kind of curate our homes and our lives with these things that we get. And I kind of realised that and I started to tie it into wine, because I always like to say I fell in love with wine late in my drinking career. Like, as, as a student, you know, and freshly out of a student being you know, poor and broke, like, wine was complex, and didn’t have to be expensive. You don’t realise that? Because everyone at least in the UK and US, you got to spend money on a good bottle of wine or is it you go to the right place you don’t really have to. And, you know, it all kind of depends on what you want. And he was just so different and so varied. like by the time I found one and I could afford it. I couldn’t find the same one again. All this different points of data like beer, spirits, cider, you know, easy, I knew what I was gonna get find a good one. I could just keep buying that. Yep. And years past until I finally fell in love with like this red wine from a friend of mine who happens to be a certified Somalia here in the UK. And just the way it’s amazing. So we bought a case together. And then that kind of kicked me off and I was just opening up to this world of wine but that was the thing it always kind of stuck with me is like it’s complicated. It’s obvious skate and I was like, You know what I want to I want to do my own physical thing. I want to do my own package thing. And the other side of this is I love food. Like I grew up in, you know, in South Texas. Most of my family’s from the deep south lots of time with you know, my grandparents and aunts and uncles big family meals, home cooked meals most of the time. But there’s very few foods to me that you make. And they’re meant to travel, if you know what I mean, you know, you want a nice steak dinner, you want a nice apple pie, you’re not really going to buy a can, or a jar or something like that. Why is one of those things that’s meant to do that, you know, there’s all this science and chaos that goes into planning these vines growing, as soon as you make it all these different ways, none of them right or wrong, just different. And you put it in this container, and you can design this cool label, and then somebody else can enjoy it in another part of the world. And I love that. So I wanted to combine that with something accessible. So I kind of went, Yeah, I want to try this myself, I want to do something, I want to make my own wine company. But I want to make it a little bit different. You know, I want to make a good quality wine. And I want to make it really accessible and easy. And that’s what kind of kicked things off for me.
Tyler Jorgenson 05:55
And I love this. So I mean, as of right now you have you’re launching with three core products, and you’re in the UK, you’re going to be selling into the US, you know here soon. But and so we can talk about probably a lot of the obstacles you had to overcome or but what was that first big hurdle? When you went from it all like the ideation of it to actually making it real? What was that first big hurdle that you had to overcome? And how did you overcome it?
Leslie Owensby 06:22
I think the main way I overcame anything I’ll talk about what those are, is probably through absolute stubborn perseverance. More than anything, a lot of people tell me that’s what you need. In this business, I’ve kind of realised that I like to say that everything that could have gone wrong has gone wrong at some point along the way. But the biggest thing for me and I kind of realised this with all the other projects I’ve ever worked on was like, what do we know? What do we not know? And what do we think we don’t know? Like, what are those what they like to say, the unknown unknowns? And of course, you know, we were talking a little bit before we started rolling, you know, things are easier now for people to do these things. And to get up and running a lot more information. There’s a lot more services. But I still kind of thought now I launched the business and 20 ATMs kind of having these ideas into 2016 into 2017. And I was like, surely I can just push button dropship this stuff, right? Find the wine, find the transport, find the canner got a warehouse, hook up a website, boom, you’re done. Easy. Not true in the slightest. So the first thing was like, Okay, what do I even legally need to do to sell alcohol? I know it’s regulated. What does what does that look like? Who do I speak to? How do I go about all those things to make sure I’m totally compliant, you know? And then how do we do everything else? How do I find, oh, I don’t have money to own the full vertical about winegrowing right away do that. And that’s at least one of my strengths, I kind of think is aside from the stubborn perseverance is being able to break down a project to kind of go like I’m here. And I can see the next horizon. What are all the things I think I need to do to get from here to there? And how do I break those down? And how do I kind of check them off my list? I make progress in every single one of those. So I’m, I’m pretty diligent about gathering information and setting those goals and checking those things off and kind of going okay, licencing What do I need? What does that look like? Okay, of course, I know needed to company incorporate here in the UK? And, you know, okay, well, how do I do this? How do I do that? How does my wine get from here to there? And one of the things I quickly realised, you know, being a shy kid years and years ago, not anymore, is asked for help. But the the this business, I absolutely love because the amount of help I’ve gotten from people you might think are competitors. And probably on paper, we are sure we’ve helped each other out other people in the business in the industry to kind of go, Hey, I’m holding my hand up. I have no idea what to do here. What’s an idea? I’ve gotten bad advice? Good advice. It hasn’t worked out. But it’s still it’s allowed me to kind of make progress. So I think the first thing was just figuring out what the heck do I do? Right? Yeah, do this
Tyler Jorgenson 09:04
and not go to jail. So you’ve got the legal thing, you’ve got the legal part of it, you’ve got to figure out pretty quickly you’ve got the, you know, then you’ve got the branding, you’ve got to go through then you’ve got to actually source product and the actual product development. When was you know, you’ve gotten all this going? When was the moment where you finally where you realise you know, you started you said you started ideating on this back in 2016. Right. When was the moment where you finally said you know what, I think that I think I have something with defy I think this is going to be it’s going to work out.
Leslie Owensby 09:33
Oh, okay. So I thought initially you’re kind of like heading towards when do you kind of think I want to do this. So when I thought it was going to work out? Yeah. That’s kind of my levels of confidence have grown every month and every year because there’s been a bit of a lull on the journey. Like I launched this thing while consulting full time. You know, I’m completely bootstrapped. No funding behind me It’s all been my own money I’ve put into it. And nice thing is I can hold my hand up and say like, I don’t have any debt either, which is quite nice about it is cool. But, you know, it’s it’s, uh, yeah, it’s been this difficult thing of like, I thought it had legs, I thought like, this is something that I think the markets growing I started looking at the market and I think look can wines growing here in the UK market, like they didn’t incorporate the company till 2018 and really start to dive deep. Like I visited lots of vineyards across Europe, mainly Italy, because knew the area a bit better. I had a friend who spoke Italian who kind of came with me to help with that. And, and really began to dive into this thing. But it’s been a constant up and down of like, oh, I need I need to can this thing what or how do I do that? Who can can it what are the prices and you have someone going, you got to do 10,000 litres for us to talk to you and you’re like, Alright, I’m done. I can’t do this. But like I said, there’s that stubborn perseverance. And I was like, There’s got to be a way like I like to tell people like my first canning experience was with a candidate. And the only reason I got that run was because I kind of politely didn’t let up for six months. And the guy even said he was like, this was your perseverance that made this happen. And also, I was open and honest. I was like, I will pay you up front. I’m not gonna lie to you until you I’m gonna do like huge volumes. This is all I can afford to do. What is your absolute minimum we can put through your line to test this thing out? Yep. Because I just I just cogs will be terrible. But I can’t even I can’t afford to do this. That’s another thing. Despite all my experience, like cogs wasn’t a term that came across my desk. And the things I did before a friend asked me what are your cogs like? I quickly Google what is yes, yeah,
Tyler Jorgenson 11:40
you know what this is what’s fascinate about when you transition from consulting into business ownership, or really transitioning from every profession into business ownership is then there’s the things of the business that you were really good at. But no matter what you did before, there are going to be several hats that you have to wear in owning the company. And so there’s always that experience and knowledge gap. And so yeah, Google solves a lot of it. Asking advice from friends solves a lot of it, but nothing solves it more than just getting in there and doing it and starting to figure it out and solve it and answer those questions as they come up. Right. And so yeah, you got through your perseverance, your stubborn perseverance, got you to your first run of product. How’d you get your first sale
Leslie Owensby 12:23
setting? I mean, to be honest with you, I’ll kind of kind of walk you through like a super brief history, and we can go too far to once and like, like I said, consulting full time, this was all evenings and weekends, like just grinding every single day, you know, it’s that whole thing, you know, what’s there’s tonnes of things like it, but like, you know, work is, you know, your, your startup or whatever is like 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration. And you know, that is absolutely true. It’s like turning up, it’s doing the work, it’s making sure you’re making progress is trying to stay sane at the same time and not kill yourself and look after yourself. But he was just doing that. And all this time, was really research and development for me. Because again, I kind of thought surely I can do these things. And I pretty quickly realised and learn more and more with each stage. You can’t just do this, like from for what I wanted to do for putting I didn’t want to make wine grocery I didn’t want to make like, let’s bring people want to make it cheaper. Right? You know, it’s, it’s a, it’s a great quality wine, I wanted to put a premium wine into an accessible product and kind of get a kick out of the fact that it’s a candle of the temporary nature. Yeah, and a Buddhist kind of this Buddhist thing of like, I designed this thing, I made it, we grew it in the root so I can enjoy this, you know, rainy night in London, you can enjoy it anywhere. And you know, in the States, my family can enjoy it down in Texas, somebody else can join up in New York, like whatever you know, this is for you to have how you want you drink it, you crush it, the whole thing can be recycled to another cat again, it’s like this beautiful things like you have it and it’s gone. Like this isn’t meant to have a permanent place in your life. You enjoy that that’s yours. And that’s what I wanted to make. And I quickly quickly learned and realise through doing and through talking and testing things. You can’t just put any wind into a can. Right. So I knew like for me one of the things always had drilled into me I wanted to do was you know, like I said self funded and all that. But part of that was I wanted to prove it. Sure. I wanted to prove to myself like I would say this is bad business. I always tell people like I wouldn’t want to take someone’s money kind of go around and gamble your money on figuring this thing out. I kind of want it to be like I’ve done it I’ve got supply chain reduced fragility. Yeah, I don’t I don’t
Tyler Jorgenson 14:35
think that’s bad business. I think that’s actually really good business. I think too many people are willing to take on capital having when they haven’t gone through the DT like actually check things out. Right. I’m a huge fan of testing before we make the decision to invest or take on investment it well
Leslie Owensby 14:52
that’s that’s what I don’t know if it was part of my upbringing or part of my work, but that’s what I wanted to do. I wanted to prove it. Because for me like product market fit is when someone goes take my money. Yep. And then the best. The best thing after that is take my money again, like, I want to keep buying this thing like, Oh, that looks cool. I definitely buy that. And when you see
Tyler Jorgenson 15:10
somebody that somebody should be a consumer, right the person buying the product, not the investor, right? So if, if a consumer wants the product, now, you know, you actually have something and I, whenever we’re doing talking with brands, we always say the first the first dollar that really matters is the sale that came from a stranger, not your family, or your friend or someone like that, because that’s the market responding, not your family and friends responding. And so I fully agree with everything you’re saying there. I think that’s a that’s a really good way to prove it. So you just you stayed perseverance. Keep going on your story. And on what were your next Yeah,
Leslie Owensby 15:43
yeah. So sorry, I told you. I’m long winded. So I don’t know you’re good. But it was, you know, so I was I was testing these things out, right. And this is all things you talked about all those hats you have to wear. So I don’t even have a good financial model. At this point. I’m just doing some really basic math and kind of going, I’m sure I can work this out. You know, people want wine, Ken wines are growing another group in the in the US are still growing there. And I hadn’t done any real market research. Like I have now to have like the numbers and the date on the growth of our TD wine of canned wine of organic, all these things. UK, they’re growing at the time. You know, better 2018 and 2016. And much better now than it was then. So I was like, Okay, this looks like it has legs. But like, how do I get that quality product? What do I need to do? You know, how do I? How do I produce the wine to taste good from a can and from a keg? And how do I produce a wine because I wanted that thing of like that I think can be had with or without food. I don’t like wine that you just have to have with food. That’s just me. Like for me to produce this mass product, I want you to have more opportunity to enjoy it. Yeah, that makes sense. And, you know, I don’t have any chemicals added to it. You know, we have we’re completely organic, no pesticides, we get no chemicals, all the sulfites are just naturally occurring. All these things. So how do I get that good quality product into a can? And what is all this stuff I don’t know about from the vineyard to the canning facility to the can so there’s a lot of learning there. So all this stuff was kind of going on. And I thought, Okay, I’ll strive to develop this brand, took advice from some other people never split the difference on design, I wound up with a terrible designer that like it wasn’t really working. It was all kind of just for basic testing, no real sales, just kind of how does this thing work? I had some friends I met who had a, like a beer shop, they saw buy cans of beer, and they actually took this first brand. And that was kind of my first sale actually. Cool. So it was you had someone you had to somebody that you knew was able to buy a little bit of a wholesale order, and at least get it in their shop, and like little like a case of 24 of these coming cases at 24. And like I wasn’t even really friends. I just kind of started up a relationship with them on Instagram, we had a few calls. I mean, bless this guy like this is my level of ignorance. He kind of went, What’s your sale price, I sent him a figure to kind of thinking don’t leave money on the table. And he went, I’d have to sell that for this amount. And it was like 50% More than I thought it would be. Yeah. Like, what do you mean? I was like, it’s a price, subtract that and he goes, No, no. Let me explain. I probably should have Google. Let me explain to your pricing structure. And we’re good friends now. And this is what he did. It’s nice that he took time now. Most people wouldn’t do that. They just hang up the phone with the email and kind of be like, Dennis. I’m explained. I was like, quickly do some math. So yeah.
Tyler Jorgenson 18:28
Yeah, I remember the first time I was selling into wholesale, you know, the buyer was like, yeah, so we really liked to look for double Keystone. And I’m like, same thing, right? I’m googling the internet was slower than me. So I’m like having a what is what is Keystone pricing? Oh, they want to mark it up. 100%. So they want retail price, they want at least half of that. And then Wholesale is going to be wanting half of that right to it. And so I’m like, oh, but same thing Googling, but again, you know, at least the internet is fast now. So you get the answers quickly. While you’re while you’re talking to people, but so that’s cool. So he was able to walk you through some pricing help you figure that out? Yeah, as your first case of 24
Leslie Owensby 19:06
Yeah, he kind of took that and I gave it it took a few more didn’t really push it because again, it was it was still part of like r&d testing phase. I mean, we thought we you know, it was definitely a stable safe product but but you know, I went through I need a camera at the time I quickly learned wasn’t right. Transport Company wasn’t quite right. I’ve been through like four different warehouses here for various reasons across licencing and certificates and the way they operate and all these things like that. So I learned a lot about that. So it’s, you know, learning about transport, learning about you know, transporting, you know, alcohol under bond from parts of Europe before Brexit. Now after Brexit, which is a whole other nightmare we won’t get into because I’ll probably cry and how did the warehouse handle it and how do we you know, all these things like that, and I kind of stopped and went, I met this other guy who’s a great brand strategist, and we hit it off and he’s got his own Another drinks brand that second not now call space. And he helped me work together to kind of rebrand this thing and make it what it was the other thing that we had happened to say well like to say we because I wrote my poor wife and working with me on this is got hit with a, a trademark dispute with a name I had at the time. It wasn’t defined. Oh, interesting. I didn’t like the name. The name was just kind of chosen out of a I can’t think of anything better heck with it. Sure. The branding and you know, so I kind of looked at it spoke to my lawyer here in the UK, who knows about these things. And she was like, you could find it, you might win, but it’ll take 18 months before we start, I was like, I can’t wait that long. I was like, you don’t even like it, you can have it. So I spent all the time figuring out like, how do we get another one let’s secure the trademark first, let’s get that down. Got all that did a rebrand it was just about the launch and then pandemic. So I kind of went is this really the right time to launch an alcohol brand.
Tyler Jorgenson 20:59
And what’s interesting is alcohol sales client, but I don’t know if new entrants claimed during that time, right? Because it’s harder to get people are just ordering what they know buy because they it was harder to buy new things and things like that you can go just browse, not walking and browsing the liquor store the way you used to. But, and consumption obviously dropped in restaurants and things like that. But home consumption increased just in in just a lot of interesting variables that if you’re new would be really really tough. So like as as we started to come out of all of that stuff, how what did you see starting to happen with the FBI,
Leslie Owensby 21:35
I launched my first product I love the white wine, I have one here before me. I got this all over the house unfortunately. And I launched the white wine last May really so I did kind of I had everything together did a production run with the new candidate was working with and we worked everything out worked out the processes and methods and how this was going to be and all those things I’ve learned about like everything you want to do to a bulk container of wine that’s in the right container has been filled, you know, blah, blah, blah, got my designs figured out how to do my labels and you know all those other things out kind of work with my design team to kind of get that straight and then produce that probably like that December before and then kind of gave it out to friends and family to try and stuff like that like that was buying this was like handing it out. They’re like yeah, this is good. And then started to build things up in the first like real sale after that. It was just basically me contacting people like I came up with a sales strategy for better for worse. And like I said, I’m pretty good about organising things. So I needed a free option because I found there’s no ins to companies out there that want to take a small businesses money kind of going all the way until only $10 a month. So you know, yep. And I learned to be really strict about where do I need to spend money like I’d rather this be a real absolute pain, and I get an ROI on it then just kind of spending money because it’s a little bit easier. Yep. So it was like Google Sheets and Trello I’ve been using Trello for years you know to I’m good about setting these boards up like what’s my process and then I had a big sales funnel on there. And it was it was just that I went to independence first and I was just selling cases at 24 I’m sending samples out I met a packaging designer turns out he lives down the road from me we’re good friends now we developed all this packaging got these printed up. And you know, I was I was just selling those to kind of whoever would take them.
Tyler Jorgenson 23:31
So part of what you said earlier is the first purchase is a big deal but the reorder is the reorder is where it really speaks volumes. So when did you start seeing like the light coming on that people liked your product?
Leslie Owensby 23:45
Probably a few months after that because fairly quickly they’re like oh, the white ones great because I came from the school of do one thing and do it really well. But big believer that the thing that I kind of found with that was at least with wine is how do you define one thing when you’re a wine brand? To most people one thing meant at least have all three colours red wine rose. Like that’s what I because initially I was fighting that and I was like it’s ridiculous like who walks into a shop because I like this white I want the rosary or the red you know Sure. Turns out a lot of people that are businesses seem to want that so it’s like here’s here’s the business is really quickly that like the same like traditional wine shops. They didn’t get it. I was trying to come was to argue with them about how wine and a can is not lower quality than wine in the bottle. So craft beer craft cocktail people, they were our customers were cannibalising those markets into wine. But quickly they’re like what’s your reading room say? Yeah, I was like oh, so it was getting the money together to kind of like do production runs of those get the red in the rose a in new learning. You know, I lost a batch of red on the way and stubborn perseverance. I had a claim against the company that took a year for them to pay out they just paid out a few months ago, now a few weeks ago, but that was like every week, what’s the status? I mean, the people were super nice, but it was just you
Tyler Jorgenson 25:07
know, uncut. Yeah, just take they’re not gonna they’re not gonna rush to settle. And it’s gonna take a while. So you will be back. Yeah. So I mean, you launched I mean, barely a year ago really? Right. You’re really getting into it’s just one product. Yeah. And you’ve got now you’ve got the three coming. You’ve got you’re getting ready to be launching in the US here in the next few months. What’s your big goal for let’s say the next three years? What does defy look like three years from now?
Leslie Owensby 25:33
Oh, gosh. So nationwide sales across the UK, the UK to really move weight when you’re an independent drinks brand seems to be supermarkets. So we just got our first supermarket listing. It’s like a high end organic supermarket called Planet organic. We got that a few months ago. So a few weeks ago can say months. Got a first international hotel chain listing that kind of love it. We ended up accidentally launching kegs of wine last year because I’d done some of my r&d and I spoke to a bar and they’re like, can you do wine on tap? And I was like I can. So we’ve got a few bars and pubs around the UK. And we’re their exclusive wine where their house wine. Because I love it. We haven’t even marketed though. So that’s a whole other route to market. So I want to get into more pubs and restaurants. I’d like to airline listings. I’m speaking some airlines. And yeah, I want nationwide across America. Really, you know, I’ve got a team set up there with experience and alcohol. We’re speaking to people, we have a plan for launch. And it’s just a matter of kind of getting that stuff up and running. You know, I’m having some conversations with the Nordics with the risk of taking too much on I’m I’m really interested in Japan because the RTD market there is really interesting,
Tyler Jorgenson 26:47
right? Absolutely. Yeah, they like dominate vending machines. But I love it. And I love that you you know, in your r&d, you ended up with some kegs. And you ended up launching like that into becoming a product. I am seeing that kind of stuff more more different types of product than just beer on tap. You know, you’re seeing Yeah, like Kombucha is on tap and wines on tap and stuff like that. It’s, you’ll see more and more. It’s really neat. What, Alright, so here’s we’re gonna make your pivot here for you, Lesley. As we come to the end of this, to me entrepreneurship, as much as it’s about creating, and about building things that you love. It’s all about creating, it’s also about creating a lifestyle that you love. So what’s one thing that Lesley is going to accomplish? Not defy wine? But what’s one thing you’re going to do be or have in the next 12 months? Oh, gosh, sadly, I’m
Leslie Owensby 27:35
going to go visit my parents because I haven’t done that, like two and a half years. I say, my parents going back, I keep playing the pandemic and then work. I work. I still work on this every day, every weekend. So I’m going to get myself to stop doing that.
Tyler Jorgenson 27:51
I’m going to take more vacation smart I think that’s you. So yeah, it was always the the startup phase where you where you kind of burn the candle at both ends. It’s really important to remember that that shouldn’t be sustained forever. Right? You have to take that season of breaks and stuff as well as the entrepreneur so well Leslie really appreciate coming out on the show everyone I encourage you to go check out d phi dot wine. They’ve got some really cool opportunities to support them as they come here into the US and there’s some really neat things coming in the way that you can just support them or even just go follow them. Check out what they’re doing. Check out their website check out their socials D find out wine does he think thank you again so much for coming out on the show and to all my entrepreneurs, all my businesses, wherever you’re listening, watching or tuning in, it’s your turn to go out and do something. Thank you for tuning in to biz ninja entrepreneur radio. What you didn’t hear was one more very important question that Tyler asks each guest if you want to be a fly on the wall when the real secrets are shared, go to biz ninja.com/vip and get your access today remember to subscribe so that you don’t miss any future episodes. And our one last favour. If this episode was meaningful to you please share this podcast with a fellow entrepreneur so they can grow along with us is ninjas. It’s your turn to go out and do something
